Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby TheEnd » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:15 am

Yea, the drag was doing something funny. If you can get a scan up it'll be easier to see.

The wheel drag usually shows as a very smooth line, with just a little hint of a curve to it. It's supposed to show the resistance the car has been driving through, so add the resistance to the power at the wheels and you should get to the engine power.
There have been wars fought over estimating engine power from wheel power, so in a lot of cases, you just have to trust that the company that made the dyno have done their maths correctly.

At Rhyl, there was an obvious break in the slope at the end, you can almost estimate / guess where the line should have been but it had a habit of flatlining at the end

Some examples-
Image

The bottom green line is the drag power, or losses, and it should be a smooth line.

Image

^ and that is frauding it by leaving an auto in gear so the engine braking appears as "drag" and gets added to the wheel power.

If you see any wavyness in the drag lines, is can be from the dyno driver dragging the brakes or pulling on the handbrake to add some fictional resistance which ends up appearing on the estimated flywheel power.

I'm not sure of the reason why the drag power line went a bit skewed at the end, someone getting out of the back (the 3 biggest guys were picked as ballast!) could do something like that.

Heavily loading a car to stop it slipping makes it harder on the tyres so it's more awkward to get an engine estimate, and it would also take a few hp out of the wheel power too as the tyres have a lot of flexing to do on the contact patches at each roller.
The rollers are "sharper" than just sitting on a flat road, and there's two of them, so that's why the tyres heat up a lot quicker on rollers, and I've seen some delaminate and throw off strips of canvas before.

Overall the car is running rich for some reason, and I think that might be holding it back at lower revs. The power increases were mostly seen above 4000, and it's about that point that the ECU gives up on the lambda sensors as they can't react fast enough.

Below that speed, it is using the lambdas to trim the fuel and adjust it, above that point it goes into open loop which is just take the details from the ECU and does what it is told.

Things to look at are the fuel pressure regulator, it should be the original BMW one, and also if you have some bigger fuel hose, you could try increasing the size of the return line in case it is overpressurising as the fuel can't spill off back to the tank fast enough.
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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby Daishag » Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:22 pm

Enda,

Do you re-call weather it was the front or rear lambda sensor that was giving wierd readings ???

I have ordered new lambdas as well as a new fuel pressure regulator (Pierberg) as well just to be on the safe side etc all parts seem to be the original items etc

The Fuel pressure reg ive ordered is listed for my engine all though i have posed the question is it the correct the pressure rating as its listed to fit rather a lot of BMW models where i was led to believe the M3 ones were a higher rating ???

http://www.worldcarparts.co.uk/Store/ta ... fault.aspx

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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby TheEnd » Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:28 pm

That's going to be the wrong one-
http://realoem.com/bmw/partxref.do?part=13531404089

It should be one suitable for only M3 and M5's
I have a feeling it was sensor 2, so rear sensor in the manifold for cyls 4-6.
I can't say for sure it has problems, but if there is something higher rated fitted it could explain stuff like the stalling when starting.

Both lambda sensors were reporting faults, but one of them was visible switching so it could be that the "stuck" one was causing the problem.
Usually the rule is if both sensors show problems, it is something else like an air leak, but it is possible for both to be bad, and certainly one was different to the other.

See what other people have done with the 044 Bosch pump. The fuel pump directly pressurised all the fuel lines to the rail, and at the end of the rail is the regulator. That will bleed off any pressure over 5 bar and return it to the tank. If it gets to over 5 bar, but the return line can't take all the fuel away, it can overpressurise.
If you know of others with an 044 on an M3, see if they have had to increase the return line size.
Note the colour of the injectors while you are in there, I think they were a blue or blue/green but I can't remember.
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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby Daishag » Mon Oct 22, 2012 7:44 pm

Enda yeah i had a slight incline it was'nt the right one due to the application list etc and messaged them to double check, they have emailed back saying its a 3 Bar Reg so there description / application list is wrong !!!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

The injectors are Bosch Items and are a Dark Royal Blue Colour, and the part number on them is 0 280 150 792.

I tell you what i have found though is one of the pins on the Mass Air Flow Meter and the corresponding socket in the wiring loom plug is furry green - corroded !!!!! Im not sure how the BM system works but ive had MAF meters give the same sort effects on other cars, could it be sending the wrong signal to the ECU fooling it into saying to much air is going in than actually is and thus the ECU is throwing fuel in etc ???

Im gonna get a new MAF meter anyway and clean the plug up etc if not get my mate (BM Master Tech) to get me some new terminals for the wiring plug and redo them etc just to be on the safe side etc

Cheers Dave aka Daishag Rallying 07805835655
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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby mef » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:13 pm

They are the standard 3.2 injectors (792), they deliver 245 cc/min but the table doesn't say at what pressure that is delivered at ( http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm ) The 3.2 uses a 5 bar pressure regulator, presumably to get more than 245cc/min flow out of these injectors since it's only slightly more than the spec of the standard 3 litre cream 701 injectors that are rated at 226cc/min @ 3 bar, the 3 litre uses a 3 bar regulator.

By the way, German "PS" is near enough the same a English "bhp" ie. 293PS = 289Bhp (PS x .986 = bhp)

323NM = 238ft/lb (conversion factor is NM x .7375)

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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby is-si » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:31 pm

Dai, are you using a 3.2ecu with double vanos then?
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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby Daishag » Mon Oct 22, 2012 8:59 pm

Yes its all 3.2 Evo with a 3.0 bottom end, but the problem we have unless i go full on stand alone managment it ain't working !!!!!

The engine is running so rich under 3500rpm a 2.0 Red Top Vauxhall has more go in it up to 3500rpm !!!!! Im looking for possible faults etc for why the system ain't working and fairplay to Enda he tried his best to get the best of a bad job its just everything is set up for the air and fuel consumption of a 3.2 but with a 3.0 bottom end its swamping it until the engine gets over 3500rpm when the higher revs can cope with it hence why i was thrashing the tits off it at Ty Croes instead of using the torque of a 6 cyl, which i may add should come in at 3250rpm and im not making peak torque until 4900rpm ???

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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby mef » Mon Oct 22, 2012 11:58 pm

By the time you've spent all that money on new lambda sensors, new MAF and mapping you may as well have spent a similar amount on an aftermarket ecu which will do away with the MAF and Lambdas and release lots more power too and still have the flexibility for remapping at a later date to suit further mods.

Why not save up and buy a proper ecu!

I don't think there's any power advantage to be had from the complication and unreliability of the twin vanos of the 3.2 evo engine, that's more about emissions. The power gain of the 3.2 is solely down to it's 6.7% capacity increase, larger ports and inlet valve sizes and lighter valve train resulting in more available revs. From what I've gathered even the cam profiles, durations and lifts are the same as those of the 3 litre engine, all combined resulting in 13% more power ie 324 over 286bhp.

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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby TheEnd » Tue Oct 23, 2012 1:16 am

About 3500rpm is where the ECU ignores the lambda sensors and just follows the maps.
The corrosion is never good, but I didn't see it noted as a fault. The MAF outputs a voltage from 0-5v as the air increases, so it's tricky to say how that would eventually work out as a lower than reality sensor reading would mean less air recorded than is present, which would be lean, but then the lambdas would be doing their best to correct it.

It's handy to use the 3.2 ecu as there are plenty of them, and it handles the vanos fine without having to lock it with a standalone. It's a clever system, and a shame to bin it if a 3.2 head is used.
As long as the general engine formats are the same, you can swap between them, for example I've had 328s running on a 325 ECU, which is essentially what Alpina and Schnitzer did before the M3 came about.
In fact, one of the closest relatives to the M3 3.0 is the 325 non vanos ECU. It might have been too much of a rush to add fully adjustable vanos control to the ECU so BMW put the VNC vanos controller in the 3.0s, and then when Siemens took over, they had their new ecu ready to handle double vanos.

The 3.2 ecu is certainly handy for fine tuning as the advance can be set in 1/10's of a degree, compared with 3/4 of a degree steps in most others, but it is primarily a road ECU, and it'll be doing it's best to stay emissions friendly until 3500-ish when it'll switch to more power orientated AFRs.
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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby Daishag » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:24 pm

mef wrote:By the time you've spent all that money on new lambda sensors, new MAF and mapping you may as well have spent a similar amount on an aftermarket ecu which will do away with the MAF and Lambdas and release lots more power too and still have the flexibility for remapping at a later date to suit further mods.

Why not save up and buy a proper ecu!

I don't think there's any power advantage to be had from the complication and unreliability of the twin vanos of the 3.2 evo engine, that's more about emissions. The power gain of the 3.2 is solely down to it's 6.7% capacity increase, larger ports and inlet valve sizes and lighter valve train resulting in more available revs. From what I've gathered even the cam profiles, durations and lifts are the same as those of the 3 litre engine, all combined resulting in 13% more power ie 324 over 286bhp.

Martin


I agree Martin with the cost implications of the afore mentioned parts but as for your quote of the power gain on a 3.2cc S50B32 is solely down to its 6.7% capacity gain, after talkin to various people including various reputal engine builders who speciallise in these engines and people who have won rallies with these engines all seem to agree, that if using the engine for racing yes the twin vanos dosent seem to offer any advantage BUT the gain is to be had with the Vanos arrangement suits Rallying / Hill Climbing as it enables torque gains low down and power gains high up the rev range and not for emmisions ??? Why though this is not happpening with my engine is a huge question and i now have my doubts that the vanos system is working correctly etc.

The power of the 3.2cc Evo engines was actually stated as 321PS which related to approx 316bhp not the 320 - 325 BHP that people actually state they were and the real gains were supposed to be the torque low down due to the Vanos adusjuting the Cam Timing to get the best of both worlds. Im taking the car back to the rollers next week to check the difference after replacing the Lambda's, Fuel Pressure Regulator and also the MAF Meter to see if they have indeed made any differnce etc.

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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby Daishag » Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:33 pm

I have also done the following modification to the brakes and that is to remove the servo as weve done this on various GrpN Evo's and it works a treat on them !!!!!

Image

The problem i was experiancing on my 1st rally at Ty Croes was i could'nt get a feel through the pedal and thus could'nt judge when she was going to lock the front brakes etc. The Mod on the Evo's i mentioned was to combat the lack of servo assist due to Anti Lag systems being fitted so i decided to remove the servo and make my own spacer adaptor and actuator rod, after taking her out today im very pleased with the feel of the pedal etc BUT its yet to be proven in the heat of compeition etc until next weekend !!!!!!

Image

Image

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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby mef » Mon Nov 05, 2012 12:21 am

Nice mod Dave, that looks really neat.

After having run my car on Chipwizards rollers last week I now tend to agree with what you're saying you about the vanos. I removed it from mine for simplicity reasons but Wayne thinks I've lost out both on midrange torque and top end power which was not good news.

Today I drove it on the road and although it seems to go well I can certainly notice the difference especially in the midrange when tootaling around at low speeds and midrange accelleration is certainly not as good but weather this will actually matter in competition when the engine will be revving much higher and I'll be using all the 6 gears I will only find out on the event next weekend.

I can see me fitting the vanos back in next year if I'm not happy with the current de-vanos setup. At least I still have the wires from my DTA ecu in place ready!

See you at Oulton next weekend,

cheers,

Martin
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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby ChrisRally » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:55 pm

If you are unsure of the VANOS have you tried manually adjusting the VANOS with the engine running to see if it operates ?

There is a supply to each solenoid that operates the VANOS, and the ECU simply grounds the other side to operate the solenoid. If you take the earth pins out, and add a wire to each of these grounds, then with it idling you can adjust the advance and retard on the cam. You'll know if it works as it will run like a dog,and then hopefully come back as you ground the other solenoid.

You can also cycle them with it off, and hear the solenoids click, and depending on where the engine stopped here the cam move.
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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby Daishag » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:02 pm

Cheers for the advice i may have to go out into the garage and try that !!!!!!!

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Re: Daishag's M3 Powered E36 Compact

Postby ChrisRally » Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:06 pm

mef wrote:Nice mod Dave, that looks really neat.

After having run my car on Chipwizards rollers last week I now tend to agree with what you're saying you about the vanos. I removed it from mine for simplicity reasons but Wayne thinks I've lost out both on midrange torque and top end power which was not good news.

Today I drove it on the road and although it seems to go well I can certainly notice the difference especially in the midrange when tootaling around at low speeds and midrange accelleration is certainly not as good but weather this will actually matter in competition when the engine will be revving much higher and I'll be using all the 6 gears I will only find out on the event next weekend.

I can see me fitting the vanos back in next year if I'm not happy with the current de-vanos setup. At least I still have the wires from my DTA ecu in place ready!

See you at Oulton next weekend,

cheers,

Martin


What HP did you get then Martin ? Was it a straightish line. This is the printout from mine, complete with coffee smudge. Just wondered how the curve compared.

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